waider: (Default)
waider ([personal profile] waider) wrote2005-05-30 12:02 am
Entry tags:

the inevitable star wars post III: now that I've had a few beers

Two things:
  • More on the Kenobi/Skywalker fight. I can’t really see it ending as it did. Kenobi, thanks to both his own training and his comradeship with Anakin, can’t kill Anakin. But he also can’t knowingly leave him alive, which he does. It would have been far better to have Anakin succumb to an apparently fatal event - e.g. he overbalances on the skiff, Obi-Wan takes off his legs, he falls on the lava, Obi-Wan sighs and leaves - than for the Lucas ending in which, without context, Obi-Wan is walking away from an obviously still-living Darth Vader.
  • A lament, I guess, for the timing or constraints of the movie: this film had to peak with Darth Vader’s creation. Unfortunately, that means that from Episode III to Episode IV, there’s a gap of maybe 18 years during which the entire rebel force is created. There is no hint at its founding in RotS, since the Republic has only just been replaced. I find this a little jarring, but I can’t see a way to fix it that would utterly undermine the punchline for Episode III, viz. Vader’s emergence.
ext_8707: Taken in front of Carnegie Hall (grumpy)

[identity profile] ronebofh.livejournal.com 2005-05-29 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Timing and pacing in the Star Wars universe has always been crap. It's impossible for me to believe in a Republic that survives for thousands of years, yet always seems to be on the brink of dissolution due to some war. Throw in a monoculture that barely changes over that period of time, plus the existence of human-available power on a level that can literally destroy a planet, and finally the destruction of an Empire that has apparently put all its eggs into their Death Star basket... my disbelief can't be suspended for this.

[identity profile] rimrunner.livejournal.com 2005-05-30 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
Obi-Wan is walking away from an obviously still-living Darth Vader

That really, really bugged me. I realize that characterization isn't one of Star Wars's strong points, but it made Obi-Wan seem cruel, and I didn't like that. I could've bought it if he maybe just couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin, but I don't see any hint of that kind of moral struggle going on onscreen.

There is no hint at its founding in RotS, since the Republic has only just been replaced.

Supposedly, there were a few scenes where several people, including Padme and, presumably, Bail, start forming their own little coterie against what they see coming. All of these were cut from the final edit, with the perhaps unintended result of turning Padme into an entirely passive character who spends most of the movie sitting around crying, angsting, unconscious, or all three. (Don't get me started on her death, either.)

Erik's upstairs watching Empire right now and I hung around for a few scenes while pretending to read about prototype effects in music genre categorization (don't ask). It really gets me how much better the character interaction was in the earlier movies: the timing, the humor, even the dialogue is better (I mean it's not Shakespeare, but would you want it to be?). This isn't a rose tint, or anything; there are some fairly obvious flaws, too.

But I really, really wish that Lucas had hired a writer.

[identity profile] nothings.livejournal.com 2005-05-30 02:12 am (UTC)(link)
That really, really bugged me. I realize that characterization isn't one of Star Wars's strong points, but it made Obi-Wan seem cruel, and I didn't like that. I could've bought it if he maybe just couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin, but I don't see any hint of that kind of moral struggle going on onscreen.


Maybe I've just succumbed to reading into things where Lucas is just being thoughtless, but I certainly just assumed that: he was constantly conflicted about killing Anakin, he was on the run for most of the battle (not in a position to have ever killed him so never really getting the chance to confront him). When it comes down to the wire, with him having the tactical, positional advantage on Anakin (not that I really believe that), he warns off Anakin--not wanting to kill him, despite that, according to waider, being his obligation. So, Anakin goes for it, Obi-Wan in that moment is forced to committ--because he's dead if he doesn't, or because his reflexes take over, whatever--and bwappo, he cuts him in half.

At that point is where you and waider have the problem, but as I've described it, up to that point you can read Obi-Wan as totally feeling obligated to this mission but entirely unwilling to actually deliver. Now, having delivered something, and with the Jedi rule against killing unarmed opponent, blah blah blah.

It wasn't the greatest moment ever, but it didn't totally fail for me. I could read in ways that it worked. At least, for me, it's nothing like the totally fall-flat-on-its-face Anakin transition from 'I don't trust any of you, nobody gives me what I want, just let me do what I want' to 'Yes, master'. Like the above, I can try to explain it away--the transition-to-the-dark-side being some kind of magical (forcey) thing that just causes this personality shift--but unlike Obi-Wan's conflict this isn't explained anywhere in the movie. Maybe it's explained in the Yoda-training in the original trilogy or something. Or maybe Lucas just sucks.

[identity profile] rimrunner.livejournal.com 2005-05-30 02:24 am (UTC)(link)
At least, for me, it's nothing like the totally fall-flat-on-its-face Anakin transition from 'I don't trust any of you, nobody gives me what I want, just let me do what I want' to 'Yes, master'.

Yeah, I didn't really buy that either—Anakin's conversion, blink and you'll miss it!

You know what would've been cool there? If, after Windu's death, Anakin came to his senses, reported back to the Council, and got spanked for his part in the whole shebang, in some suitably dramatic manner that ultimately tipped the balance for him (though the run-up would still have to have been better—although Palpatine's temptations are the bits of dialogue that did work for me, mostly because Ian McDiarmid is very, very good and Anakin doesn't give the impression of being all that smart). That would've been nicely ironic, if Anakin went back to the Sith because the Jedi wouldn't have him. Believable, too, given how incredibly pompous the Jedi come off.

Sure, it's a plot that's been done before, but what about Star Wars hasn't?

As to your other point, I can accept that that's what was supposed to be going on there, it just didn't come off for me that way.

[identity profile] tongodeon.livejournal.com 2005-05-31 06:23 am (UTC)(link)
if Anakin went back to the Sith because the Jedi wouldn't have him. Believable, too, given how incredibly pompous the Jedi come off.

I like this.